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New Post 4/30/2008 9:33 AM
  Keifus
393 posts
3rd Level Poster




Miley 

Annie Liebowitz, isn't that hte woman that takes those creepy pictures of babies dressed as tulips and insects?  Well no (but close enough I say), but the point is that the Miley spread felt more like those delicate human flower things than anything remotely sexual.  (Today comes on in teh gym.  I've yet to see the point of it, which I don't think would be revealed with the sound on.)  Like you said, it's been pretty obviously supervised and reviewed by her family/managers.  If it comes to bite anyone, I'd rather it see it be the guy who inflicted Achy Breaky Heart on the world, but it won't amount to anything.  This is just some transitional marketing between kid star Miley Cyrus to grownup star Miley Cyrus, and unlike getting knocked up or drugged out, this one isn't too controversial.  It'll be interesting to see if one of the Disney groomed stars finally makes it over the gap.

The last bunch of tween flameouts (Lindsay, Mary-Kate, Ashley [but not Britney: her role, at least when she was popular, was more to tempt the Humberts than to get the tykes to buy Barbies {also, is there not a single one of these kiddie queens that doesn't have the diminutive -ie, -y, or -ey in their names?}]) had no personal feel to them.  My kids may have caught that adorable redhead in some rerun of The Parent Trap, but there was no idolatry in their precious little hearts as she charmed the grownups.  Miley (not really) and Jamie-Lynn (really) are another matter.  There's definitely a little bit of malice in my heart (call it revenge for inflicting me with their drivel for these formative years), but I also feel bad (pawns in the game of life and all), and I also hate having to explain J-L's pregnancy to my ten year old (but that stuff is part of my job anyway).

 

 
New Post 4/30/2008 11:58 AM
  switters
311 posts
3rd Level Poster




Re: Miley 
I think we all know who the real pond scum in this fiasco is: Disney. Again. Miley may have been manipulated into taking her shirt off by Annie, but I'm having trouble figuring out how she'd do that. All I've read points to the fact that Miley had her shirt off and Annie snapped the picture. Haven't seen much in the way of a dialogue that reads, "Hey. I'm not taking my shirt off." Or, "Hey, stop taking my picture while my shirt is off." Either way, her parents are complete stupid dumbasses.

Are kids asked to grow up faster? Are they forced to grow up faster? I realize growing up there's a desire to be older (that goes away in your 30s). But when did tweens become the sacred cows of an amusement park that abuses them with fame and fortune and celebrity, then abandons them once they get boobs?

It's creepy. Then again, the house that mouse built has always been a touch pedophiliac-esque.
 
New Post 4/30/2008 12:38 PM
  Michael Kenney
394 posts
3rd Level Poster




Re: Miley 

The media in general promote pedophilia, they just do it in a "we're so disgusted by this, we almost wish we didn't have to spend hours talking about it" sort of fashion.

I was blissfully unaware of anyone named Mindy McCready until the news broke that Roger Clemens was "very close" with her when she was 15. (12-13 years ago) I'd never heard of her or her music. But open up the "old man/little girl" scenario and the press is on it like Roger Clemens on a 15 year old.

Think of a famous child-abduction and murder. Any of them (okay the only one)

Would we have heard countless hours of coverage, spanning years, if they didn't have the pictures of little JonBenet in her pageant gear and grown up girl make-up to run on the big screen behind the anchor creature? 

Speaking of dumbass parents, can we just launch all of the Little Miss Sunshine parents into space, ?

 
New Post 4/30/2008 12:41 PM
  Dawn Coyote
74 posts
No Ranking




Re: Miley 
Modified By Dawn Coyote  on 4/30/2008 1:28:38 PM)

Hi swit! "context" was funny.

Hi Keifus! Your persistent, insufficiently ironic use of "teh" is an annoying affectation and it makes me want to smack you. Stop it.

I'm thinking something vague about 15 year olds' raging hormones, and our fetishization of childhood crashing into our sexualization of teen girls. Like, it's not the baring of Miley that's offensive to me - it's her elevation to icon status, and the sickness that implies in us. I'm not making any sense. Perhaps more clarity on this later.

 

eta: Hi Schmutzie! Wasn't there a comedy sketch about CNN's coverage of missing attractive blonde women and the speculation that they are surely being Raped! and Tortured! as the coverage rolls on and on, with as many photos of said woman (who is likely even now being Raped! and Tortured!) as the station can lay its sweaty little hands on?

eta2: Nancy Grace and Maury Povich: vampires on teevee.

 
New Post 4/30/2008 1:11 PM
  Keifus
393 posts
3rd Level Poster




Re: Miley 

I have never used "teh" ironically at all, I just have poor coordination.  I've never quite figured out the netiquette of its intentional use (and I suspect that it's really dumb anyway).

Agreed on Nancy Grace.  Pure evil.  Also think I'll agree with you when you arrive at your clarity.  The fall of former tweens seems to be inversely proportional to their prepubescent star level (and also how attractive they turned out as adults).  Someone needs to draw some charts, and maybe a Venn diagram, with Disney and stage parents included.

 

 
New Post 4/30/2008 1:26 PM
  Dawn Coyote
74 posts
No Ranking




Re: Miley 

Keifus: I'm sorry. I assumed an over-enthusiastic misuse, not genuine accident. It's Teh Crazy: it makes me impute motives to people without adequate evidence.

I was going to start a thread on retributive justice and just what the hell does one do with a Josef Fritzi (and wait for the opportunity to draw the obvious parallels between a basement cell and Guantanamo Bay), but I can't top post.

Clearly, I'm being disenfranchised by the Quiblit editor (and see first paragraph).

 

 
New Post 4/30/2008 1:43 PM
  Michael Kenney
394 posts
3rd Level Poster




Re: Miley 
Modified By Michael Kenney  on 4/30/2008 1:44:19 PM)

Hi Dawn~

If I recall, I think that was an SNL bit on CNN .

And just when I thought it was over, came a few months of coverage of John Mark Fucking Carr and his bogus claim of having committed the JonBenet crime.(Let's go to our massive archive of JonBenet pictures while we discuss this bottom-feeding scumbag.)

That's a discussion for another day, but I'll just say that people who take "credit"  for crimes they didn't commit should be launched into space as well.

 
New Post 4/30/2008 2:27 PM
  Dawn Coyote
74 posts
No Ranking




Re: Miley 

So, take Jon Benet (and news coverage of her), Miley Ray Cyrus (and the current scandal), and a woman and her kids kept in a basement cell for 20-some years, and a bunch of women and kids rescued from a polygamist cult in Texas, and what's the common denominator?

On wikifray, Aaron was making a point about the oppressor/victim rhetoric infantilizing the appointed victim (of racism, in that instance), and I think the reaction to the Vanity Fair pics is something like that, too: Miley, Britney, the Olsen twins, their collective cloying "specialness" and our collective outrage over their debasement is an essential part of the injustice we do them.

That's not very clear, either. I may be way off. Perhaps this is the fly in feminism's ointment, though: the inherent contradiction in a struggle to overcome one group's special status.

 
New Post 4/30/2008 2:31 PM
  John McG
284 posts
4th Level Poster




Consider yourself enfranchised... 

Link

 
New Post 4/30/2008 2:38 PM
  Dawn Coyote
74 posts
No Ranking




Re: Consider yourself enfranchised... 
Modified By Dawn Coyote  on 4/30/2008 2:39:17 PM)

John! Thanks. I'll think about it, and post later if I have time.

I can kind of imagine the discussion, and I hesitate to bore y'all with a rehash of stuff Gregor Samsa got all sorted out for us years ago.

 
New Post 4/30/2008 4:01 PM
  Dawn Coyote
74 posts
No Ranking




Re: Consider yourself enfranchised... 

Ha!

Obviously, I should have read BOTF before I commented, though I'm not sure what justoffal is trying to say, beyond, "Those clever Chinese!" and "Yay, kiddie porn!"

 
New Post 4/30/2008 4:13 PM
  Michael Kenney
394 posts
3rd Level Poster




Re: Miley 

An interesting thought Dawn Coyote.

The women/girls are more or less all victims, and in all cases...the victims of men. Take a step further, into the medium of your choice, there is the "marketing" of that same victimization, but in the case of Miley...as Schuyler points out here...the victim is the problem.

Also in the case of Roger Clemens by the way.

Mindy McCready was a person I'd never heard of 3 days ago.

2 days ago, I learned who she is. The 34 year old singer, who was a 15 year old star back when Roger Clemens was taking her, Monica Lewinsky, and Michael Jordan back the hotel for some late night chatting,

Yesterday came word that she's fallen on hard times, drugs, booze, arrests. She's a whore!!!

Hey that was quick. I guess that sells better.

I thought of you last night while watching Carrier. Thought of our..ahem...discussion about Paris Hilton. I took issue with your choice of words. Culture of Rape. Promoting the general acceptance of words like skank ,with my use of them.

Below deck on the carrier Nimitz, the cameras recorded a conversation between a guy who was being removed from the boat because of blatant racism, and another guy. It was very very strange.

Guy 1~ Hey I was raised in family of racists, so I don't really mean any offense.

Guy 2~ So you consider me a nigger?

Guy 1~ Yes I do. ..I like you, and you're a good sailor, but I'd be lying if I said no. (others began stepping between the two, expecting a dust-up)

Guy 2~ No no, it's okay. We're good. Let me explain something to you. By using language like that, you're normalizing it. You're telling other people it's okay to say shit like that. It's not okay.

 

I hope to god that the percentages are as small as I hope to god they are. I really hope that the media overexposure to this stuff doesn't lead people to think that making the victim...uh...the victim again is the right way to heighten awareness of a problem.

 
New Post 4/30/2008 4:43 PM
  Keifus
393 posts
3rd Level Poster




Re: Miley 

Well, there's Macaulay Culkin.  I remember in his day, people were wondering why there were no creepy little girl wunderkinden.  Well, that changed.  I guess.  How did Little Mac turn out anyway? 

(Actually, he's sort of resurrected a career, but you know what I mean.)

 

 
New Post 4/30/2008 4:56 PM
  Michael Kenney
394 posts
3rd Level Poster




Re: Miley 

I do know what you mean Keith.

After I replied to Dawn above, I had another thought (hey mark down the date, two thoughts..)

I once wrote a thing that I posted on the fray called "Predator and Prey."

Climbed inside the head of a guy who was trying to hook up with a 13 year old girl on the internet. Drove to her house. Had the condoms and the wine coolers. Heart slamming in my chest as I approached the front door to her parents' house....walk in the patio door that she told me would be unlocked...

"Hi I'm Chris Hansen from Dateline. Ever heard of the show To Catch A Predator?'

Cops. Arrest. Humiliation. Jail.

But I wonder sometimes, as I did in that post, who is the predator?

Obviously, Mr Pervert is one.

But why is that show so wildly popular? How many times can you watch a pervert get stung before it becomes....normalized.  Are the folks at MSNBC tapping into some weird, voyeuristic pedophilia? Are they marketing it?

I think the media are predators too, and we all are the prey.

 
New Post 4/30/2008 5:12 PM
  Dawn Coyote
74 posts
No Ranking




Re: Miley 
Modified By Dawn Coyote  on 4/30/2008 5:15:43 PM)

It's not that they're victims so much as they're objects. When the virgin/whore dichotomy is the underlying construct, it's all about women as commodities. It's what jo is doing in his post, isn't it - the binary of chastity vs. obscenity, and his/men's/our entitlement to view women as either chaste or defiled? Or in Britney's case, both (and she's doing so well with all of it, too).

I read Deej's comment in the XX Factor fray: Assuming there is rampant sexism amongst males because of this example is hasty, and while some have posted here that most men are attracted to  women (true) and want to have sex with them (true, but in a general sense rather than involving any specific planning, in most cases), to generalize that men look down upon women is simply wrong, assuming we are referring to North American society.

I didn't really know how to respond. It's hard to explain, because it's not about individual men and women, it's like cultural background noise. It's like gravity. Who notices gravity?

It's the same thing with language: skank = object, and you know what we do with objects: we use them to whatever ends they can best be used.

[I think you've got it wrong, Schmutzie: we're not all prey; when we consume the objects the media holds up to us, we're all predators.]

 
New Post 4/30/2008 5:40 PM
  Dawn Coyote
74 posts
No Ranking




Re: Miley 

Regarding real-life fifteen-year-old girls: sometimes they really, really, really want to have sex. They're like, totally ripe and ready, but what do we do? We teach them that all desire and agency belong to the boys, and that they (girls) are objects upon which boys will act, if they get half a chance (and if you let them, you're a hoooor/slut/skank/etc.).

What I would teach a real-life fifteen year old: Sex is fun! Sex with someone you really like a lot is fun, but sex with your friends is fun, too! If you, a full human being with sovereign rights over her own body, decide to have sex, I would urge you to protect yourself in the following ways, etc., and to also be aware of the social context in which you're having sex, and how our culture responds to young women who enjoy their sexuality. Otherwise, have fun! Wheee!

 
New Post 4/30/2008 6:01 PM
  Michael Kenney
394 posts
3rd Level Poster




Re: Miley 

You're right, and that's the language I should have used. Objects.

And that's what I meant at the end when I said I pray the percentages are as small as I pray they are.

I hope, and I do suspect, the vast majority of men don't see women/girls as pieces of meat. How vast the majority? I don't know sometimes.  Most , meaning all, the guys I know, i.e...let into my life as golf friends, drinking buds, etc.....don't see women as a objects at all Dawn. Now that's my choice of friends...

I have met guys who breathe through their mouths as well. They're obvious by contrast. Rare in my experience.

I also agree, that those that snatch at the media offerings are predators as well, or at least they think they are. That's the target market. That was my point in the fray post.

Who's the predator? Who's the prey?

The little girl?  Predator? No. But she's the bait isn't she? She's the object.

The prevert? Of course.

MSNBC? Them too.

The people who are devoring the kill? The target market?

I don't know. And that's a whole new discussion. Predator v Scavenger.

Is the voyeur sitting at home, thanking his lucky fucking stars that he didn't act out his internet underage fantasy as he watches what could be himself get stung, a predator or a scavenger? Probably thinks he's a predator, but MSNBC sees him as their prey as much as Chris Hansen sees Mr Perv as his.

And you must have known different 15 year old girls than I did. Absolutelty it's the beginning of the beginning of that wonderful experience. And believe me, I was more than willing. No frickin' takers for 3 more long, long, long, long, long ,long, years. (and by long, I mean in terms of time rather than endowment. I'm Irish. We have big feet.)

 

 

 

 
New Post 4/30/2008 6:16 PM
  Dawn Coyote
74 posts
No Ranking




Re: Miley 

Like I would have said to Deej if I'd been able to articulate it: it's not you, Schmutz, it's the culture. You're soaking in it (as am I).

I'd like to keep chatting about the sexual proclivities of teenage girls and boys, and perhaps get around to one of my typical over-disclosures about the wild orgies I enjoyed as a 15 year old, but I have to install a wireless router now, and that makes me want to cry like a little girl.

 
New Post 4/30/2008 6:24 PM
  Michael Kenney
394 posts
3rd Level Poster




Re: Miley 

My new high speed internet connection went down for the first time last week.

(I've had it for 2 months. God what I was missing at 56K dial-up)

"Hi my name's Michael Kenney. Just like on last week's South Park, I don't have any internet. I feel lost. Help."

"Are you using a router?"

"A what?"

 

(Don't forget to pick up where you left off on that retrospective of your formative years....please.)

 

 
New Post 4/30/2008 7:17 PM
  Dawn Coyote
74 posts
No Ranking




Re: Miley 
Modified By Dawn Coyote  on 4/30/2008 7:18:22 PM)

Sweet jesus—I hate reading manuals! It's not because I lack the requisite gonads to understand electronic devices. It's the ADD.

I'm sure topazz doesn't have this problem.

 
New Post 4/30/2008 7:37 PM